German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[Optimist]

Ahh. That is the rub. Even she cannot stop the natural order of things LOL.

As you say, sometimes even dogs are better companions than spouses

Arigato

Oops. This reads wrong. The two statements whilst correct are totally unrelated except insofaras they are replies to Mr Ho, from the land I will soon visit.

[Optimist]

Polyamorist. Nice post.

[Optimist]

Well we cannot verify the quality level of your wife with what you say, but I hope at least she does not age LOL.

Ahh. That is the rub. Even she cannot stop the natural order of things LOL.

As you say, sometimes even dogs are better companions than spouses

Arigato

[Optimist]

The traditional, standard, Christian wedding vow (I don't know about Jewish or Muslim wedding vows) includes a phrase like "forsaking all others, to be faithful only to him / her as long as you both shall live". The intent at the begining of the marriage, based on their vows, is to be exclusive sexual partners. What they decide to do freely and without coercion after that is their business. However, when one of them decides secretly not to keep the vow, it is by definition cheating and dishonest, no matter how many married men visit hookers.

Marriage is traditionally supposed to be a partnership, with each party contributing their resources for the benefit of the family unit. Use of those resources, except on a De minimis basis, is supposed to be a joint decision and the resources used for the benefit of the family unit, unless they have freely and without coercion decided otherwise. Secretly spending thousands of dollars on hookers is not a wellness issue, nor what a true partner does.

I am a bit unclear how what you say relates to each of the several quotes you set out. I assume that you are agreeing that a couple who agree how they spend their combined resources can include either party spending money on things which they individually choose, as long as the total amount is agreed.

As for traditional wedding vows, let us forget them: they until recently required women to obey their husbands! But as you say, any relationship where there is dishonesty, needs some work.

We can discuss this at length, but I think it is better we let isg members choose their own ways of living, married, single, polyamorist , or whatever

[Mr Ho]

I am a guy who has 10 mistakes and 20 typos in a sentence. So, I completely understand wanting to edit and re-edit.

I don't think ISG is technically equipped to allow editing exactly until someone replies to the original post; far more easier to allow editing based on a time stamp.

As long as you did not make mistake of getting married it is just fine.

Furthermore, this is not university essay or business paper, it is merely a chit chat forum, no need to be perfectly correct with spelling etc.

[Jimmy Boy 99]

All agreed and above board and open. Nothing behind backs.

You are right to focus on the financial arrangements. It is possible to be married but for there to be financial autonomy. Without this marriage could become a form of slavery. As an aside, the working girls often are acutely aware that me being married limits my potential as a sugar daddy lol

Why so harsh on married men? Its normal for people all over to have multiple partners before / after and even while still married.

In some societies one can marry several women at same time legally while in others people maintain / sponsor mistress / girl friends.

Even if it is taboo and in some societies men / women just change their sex partners like it means nothing.

What's important is at time of relationship both or everyone involved have consent. And that can happen for multiple reasons Itself.

One may like physical presence. Other may like intellect. Some run after confidence some after power, in business of pleasure its.

Money / gifts that's works (While money works in most cases while people acknowledge it or not).

I can only speak for myself. Married many years, I tell my wife she can have sex on the side as much as she wants. And she should be thankful that I am with her and pay most of all her life expenses. Regarding two aspects, moral and financial. Financially, it would be improper to disclose to a wife any P4P spendings, as it could be used directly against you in a court. Morally, yes, fucking dozens of other women is moral, because it is your wellness. You pay for a gym, travel to a vacation resort, visit a psychologist when dealing with a complicated family issue. Same with mongering. It is not dishonest because you are buying services offered by a sex worker, not having second family with five kids in another country LOL.

Exactly so. When my wife was working, her colleagues were most concerned to know that she was in charge of her earnings, not me. Otherwise I would have been no different to a pimp and they made it clear that would have been the lowest of the low

The traditional, standard, Christian wedding vow (I don't know about Jewish or Muslim wedding vows) includes a phrase like "forsaking all others, to be faithful only to him / her as long as you both shall live". The intent at the begining of the marriage, based on their vows, is to be exclusive sexual partners. What they decide to do freely and without coercion after that is their business. However, when one of them decides secretly not to keep the vow, it is by definition cheating and dishonest, no matter how many married men visit hookers.

Marriage is traditionally supposed to be a partnership, with each party contributing their resources for the benefit of the family unit. Use of those resources, except on a De minimis basis, is supposed to be a joint decision and the resources used for the benefit of the family unit, unless they have freely and without coercion decided otherwise. Secretly spending thousands of dollars on hookers is not a wellness issue, nor what a true partner does.

[Takedown]

It's funny how monogamist assumptions go so deep, even on a forum like this. The idea that you can have one deep connection in your life and that ipso facto rules out all other deep connections or even medium-level connections. Where did that idea come from?

I don't think monogamists believe that one deep connection rules out all other deep connections. It just in some ways makes it less complicated.

Some of it is a matter of resource allocation. A lifetime spent with one single person would naturally lead to a very deep intimate knowledge. The more you divide your time, the more diluted the product. Not to say that you can't have meaningful more diluted relationships. Some may be more capable than others of dividing attention. Some may not be able to do it at all. Not all people are built to be polyamorous.

[Jnpr30]

Oh that. I made a few typos. Other times, I forgot to add details to a report and I could no longer do so.

As you can see, I don't come here to argue very often. I come here for fun. I write trip reports for fun and to help others. We are not solving world hunger.

You should at least be able to edit until someone replies to you post.

I am a guy who has 10 mistakes and 20 typos in a sentence. So, I completely understand wanting to edit and re-edit.

I don't think ISG is technically equipped to allow editing exactly until someone replies to the original post; far more easier to allow editing based on a time stamp.

[Polyamorist]

And speaking of Optimist, I have a legitimate question I want to ask. Really, Optimist. It's not meant to be a slight or an attack against you. But, Takedown holds you out as somebody who has "companionship" with your wife, and she allows you to be "transparent" in this hobby. In other words, she allows you to see prostitutes. Now, it just seems to me that when you do see prostitutes, your approach or "style" is to seek out and obtain some high level of "connection" and "companionship" with them. If you already have that with your wife, as Takedown suggests, then why do you place so much emphasis on having that with a prostitute too? I mean, that's what I get out of your posts, and I'm just trying to understand. If you have this wonderful companionship with your wife, as Takedown says, then why do you need to seek that out with prostitutes as well? At a starting point, it suggests to me that this companionship that you're getting at home isn't quite enough. Or, maybe it meets a different kind of need? I don't know. Just trying to understand.

Salaam Mr Cane. It's funny how monogamist assumptions go so deep, even on a forum like this. The idea that you can have one deep connection in your life and that ipso facto rules out all other deep connections or even medium-level connections. Where did that idea come from?

From a polyamorist perspective I would say that any friend that tells you you cannot have other friends is not your true friend. Any business client who tells you you can't have other clients is not good business. And yes, even in love: it is not about ownership, it is not about monopoly. If you have a good thing, multiply it!

So basically I am glad that Optimist is as successful as he is, and he has no need to apologize for that success.

[Mr Ho]

TheCane. Complicated questions. I don't want to turn this thread into a study of me I am no model for anybody: it would be arrogant and foolish of me. I agree with your penultimate paragraph completely

Your questions are diplomatic and you have raised this before. Maybe the way I write gives a false picture that I am searching to find some high level connection and provokes these questions: I apologise for misleading

In short, you ask why I am looking for the same thing from prostitutes as I have with my wife: the word "companionship " may be the same, but the quality is worlds apart. It is NOT the same thing, any more than a mass produced food item with cheap ingredients is the same as a top quality one: chocolate is a word which encompasses garbage and the heavenly.

I can see the sense of what you say. But there are other explanations. First, by the way, companionship and sex with my wife is great..

Well we cannot verify the quality level of your wife with what you say, but I hope at least she does not age LOL.

[Optimist]

TheCane.Your questions are diplomatic and you have raised this before. Maybe the way I write gives a false picture that I am after a high level connection and provokes these questions: I apologise for misleading. I don't want to turn this thread into a study of me: I am no model for anybody. (Btw I agree with your penultimate paragraph completely)

You ask why I am looking for the same thing from prostitutes as I have at home: the word "companionship " may be the same, but the quality is worlds apart. It is NOT the same thing, any more than a mass produced food item with cheap ingredients is the same as a top quality one: chocolate is a word which encompasses garbage and the heavenly.

I can see the sense of what you say. But there are other explanations. First, by the way, companionship and sex with my wife is great. When I visit clubs now I am not looking to fill a vacuum, but to meet radically different people from different backgrounds: in a small room naked eye to eye with a stranger it is easy to strip away to some extent the social constructs we live in normally. There are other ways of doing this but this is one I have found (and I like to see - and more- naked women). I don't look for a high level connection, just to learn and experience something new. 90% of the time I would be better off at home: but the 10% is worth it

A serious relationship with a prostitute would destroy the most important things in my life. I just look for girls I am comfortable with and like, and who appear to reciprocate. Probably I am no different to many club visitors: I suspect the way I write makes it sound more profound than it is.

If you want to continue then maybe PM?

Cheers.

[The Cane]

Optimist referenced his open transparency with his spouse regrading this hobby. This shows his value for companionship and seems to be exactly what I want. Companionship and fucking multiple women. You on the other hand stated that you chose a life of being "single and free and fucking." You seemed pretty ecstatic about that lifestyle without mention of a desire for companionship so it seems to the reader that you don't value the latter, which is within your right. But that is the point of this subject, the value of companionship versus freely fucking.

You don't know me, and make all kinds of assumptions that simply are not correct about what or how I think. You can't truly and fully know me from this forum. I hold stuff back, as most of us probably should, as discretion is the better part of valor. You put words into my mouth, and then call it all "incongruent", and I don't like that. That said, I hope you do find what you're looking for. It's not so easy, believe me. But, I told the story here a long time ago of a friend of mine who has just that. What you say Optimist says he has, and what you say you want. A spouse's permission to see prostitutes. His wife lost her sex drive, but understood that he still needed to have sex to have a happy life. So, she gave him permission to see prostitutes.

She gave him only two rules. "Don't ever bring one of those women to my house"! And don't spend too much money. I've known a lot of men in my life, and he's the only one I personally ever met who had that arrangement. So happy hunting! I know (from experience) that the swinging lifestyle is much, much more prevalent. Where husband and wife explore sexual relations with strangers together. Swapping. And even then, it's not easy to find a woman who will be down with that either. But, it's far easier than finding one who will let you see prostitutes on the side! That's just my life experience. Like I said, I sincerely hope you find what you need.

And speaking of Optimist, I have a legitimate question I want to ask. Really, Optimist. It's not meant to be a slight or an attack against you. But, Takedown holds you out as somebody who has "companionship" with your wife, and she allows you to be "transparent" in this hobby. In other words, she allows you to see prostitutes. Now, it just seems to me that when you do see prostitutes, your approach or "style" is to seek out and obtain some high level of "connection" and "companionship" with them. If you already have that with your wife, as Takedown suggests, then why do you place so much emphasis on having that with a prostitute too? I mean, that's what I get out of your posts, and I'm just trying to understand. If you have this wonderful companionship with your wife, as Takedown says, then why do you need to seek that out with prostitutes as well? At a starting point, it suggests to me that this companionship that you're getting at home isn't quite enough. Or, maybe it meets a different kind of need? I don't know. Just trying to understand. Maybe your "companionship" with your wife is not sexual in nature, like my friends isn't? And so you get that somewhere else? But as far as I know about him, he's not particularly seeking "companionship" with prostitutes either. He's just having fun and fucking. Just trying to understand.

Now, I've been in a particular stage in my life. And I like it! I don't want to ever get married. I'm pretty sure of that. But, I also know that I don't need to get married in order to have a companion! And, I also know that what I emphasized as being the most important things in life at 17 changed at 27, and on and on. About every decade a changed view of what's most important in life. And I see that continuing right into the twilight years. Where I'm going with this is that I can see a future where I don't want to monger so much anymore, if at all, in favor of. Companionship. Yes! Which I don't have to marry to have! But, I'm just not there yet, and living that life of being single and free and fucking pretty girls all over the world. But one day, that will come to an end. One way or the other, it's going to end. And, I hope I will be ready to welcome it. Maybe even with a little companionship! That's just not where I'm at yet. But I know things change with time. You can't stop change. Because change happens!

"You can teach an old dog new tricks" - Psychology Today.

[Takedown]

And you my friend have committed one huge fallacy if you are suggesting that I am rejecting companionship as a worthy thing. I am not. Nor did I say (or even suggest) that 60 year-old men and 17 year-old boys have the same needs. Or that survival and happiness are both the same thing. That all came from you! It's as if you are more interested in making some counterargument than really "hearing" and considering the main points I made.

I said that marriage and companionship are not the same thing, and that one can even have a marriage with no companionship. That was not said to "reject" companionship. It was just to point out something that people don't realize sometimes. I talked about having a full and varied life, the importance of which becomes more evident as one grows older, like say when you're 60 versus 17? And I absolutely did not suggest that spreading one's seed around is the sole source of happiness! That came from you. No need for you to put words in my mouth or attempt to make my points for me..

Your examples and your logic are incongruent, hence my rebuttals. Mentioning thousands of years of biological tendency but putting very little emphasis on companionship is why I presented my counterargument.

Regarding companionship: you first used the term "indoctrination" to refer to my views on that. However, we both agree that companionship does not equal marriage. I have made all attempts to consistently use that term rather than marriage but remember you made the argument of indoctrination in relation to marriage, your assumption not mine.

Optimist referenced his open transparency with his spouse regrading this hobby. This shows his value for companionship and seems to be exactly what I want. Companionship and fucking multiple women. You on the other hand stated that you chose a life of being "single and free and fucking." You seemed pretty ecstatic about that lifestyle without mention of a desire for companionship so it seems to the reader that you don't value the latter, which is within your right. But that is the point of this subject, the value of companionship versus freely fucking.

Regarding age:

"It is not the years in your life but the life in your years that counts." -Adlai Stephenson.

[Optimist]

A woman has no right to consider a man's money is (partly) hers. When a man considers a woman's money to be partly his we call him a pimp.

Things may be different if a man is squandering his wife's inheritance.

Exactly so. When my wife was working, her colleagues were most concerned to know that she was in charge of her earnings, not me. Otherwise I would have been no different to a pimp and they made it clear that would have been the lowest of the low

[Optimist]

Indeed, for "la tendresse", many guys will observe how girls can switch it on or off like a light, and grow frustrated at how random it all seems. Even apathy may set in: "I don't give a damn for these games: just gim-me the suck-and-fuck and I'm out-ta here!"

Your four levels provide a good framework to work within. The fourth level you describe is an area where reality and illusion are hardest to disentangle. There are three variants.

1. In most cases it will be that the girl has a high Emotional Intelligence and can tune in to many different guys. It is real but it is only within a commercial relationship. If the girl and client are stable then it can work as a club relationship. (a sub division would be whether or not the girl is consciously turning on the Emotional Intelligence or it is intrinsic to her core).

2 More often the girl and guy are emotionally vulnerable and one or other plays games, either intentionally, or out of their emotional uncertainty. The risk of harm in these cases is high. This is where it is important for both parties to get out, but it is hard to do so.

3. The situation grows so that it moves into a non- commercial and non-club relationship. This is rare, and leads swiftly either to break up, or more rarely, a lasting relationship.

The problem is trying to work out what exactly is happening in any particular case.

Of course, many guys will choose the less complex and risky option of fuck and go.

Cheers.